Found Family

This week Pastor Brandon is back for the first part of our latest conversation where we talk about what it means for the church to be found family and how complicated that can be. 

Transcript

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What's up everybody? Welcome back to Buddy Walk with Jesus. As always, as we get started, I want you all to know 2 very important things that you are prayed for and you are loved deeply. If you are in need of prayer, do not hesitate to reach out. You can find us on all of the socials including our Facebook group, the Buddy Walk Community, where we do regular lives. We come together, pray together the whole 9 yards. We are picking up this week with a series of conversations with Pastor Brandon. He's back and this week is a conversation on Found Family. Next week will be part 2 of the conversation. So without further ado, let's go ahead and kick into it. There is another voice to add to the conversation. I had mentioned last week that this is the point in the project where we start to have more conversations. We start to get back to the very foundational roots of Buddy Walk with Jesus, having raw conversations about important matters of faith and there is no 1 better to kick off this new season of the show than Pastor Brandon. Welcome back. Hey, thanks for having me back, Joe. And it's a pleasure to get this new season of the show started, kind of taking it back the old school way that it used to be here on the show. Looking forward to it. And Joe, are you familiar with the every past 1 of every pastor's favorite cliches, Acts 29, because that's where you're at now. You're in you're in Acts 29 where you're living out the church. Yeah, yeah. I mean, sometimes you are, in fact, just a walking cliche, you know? Yeah, you know. I carry a lot of them, so... Yeah. So, you know, 1 of the things that I heard a lot when you were on for those couple of episodes earlier on in this in the season was it for people who have been around from the beginning and heard a gurnite and heard where the show started off from, it was a return to form in a lot of respects. And it's baked into the fabric of the name, to have people come together and to be able to have honest and open dialogue about the things that influence and shape and effect and impact our walk and these matters of the Christian life. And last time you were around, we started to hit on some stuff that I think is unfortunately resonant for a lot of folks. Now there's always good in, let's destruct this thing, let's deconstruct this thing, let's kick the can around, let's investigate and interrogate what we believe and why we believe it. But an unfortunate number of people come to this question of asking, what does it mean to be a people of God? What does it mean to have community? What does it mean to be a part of a community? And where does my identity in Christ fit into all of that? And all of those big questions that circle around compartmentalizing, what about these people who think differently than me? What is the extension of love thy neighbor? What does it mean to have differing expressions of worship, but still being under the banner of the same kingdom that tends to come from a place of experiencing how some of these events and experiences and stories can kind of go upside down in our lives. And we were talking about some of that the last time that you and I were talking. And I think that's exactly a good spot to pick back up from because I think you and I both are in wildly different ways, products of a generation that it's very hard for us to get a beat on the barometer of what it means to live by the ways of Jesus, because we grew up in a generation where it was a lot of don't do this, it was a lot of don't do that, it was a lot of it looks like this, it was a lot of it looks like that, but then when we become adults and we're like, oh, okay, we're ready to actually live out the thing that we were taught, it feels like a lot of the time it comes with, oh, not like that, not like that. You know, and it's, it's that sound, that's sure that sounds cynical, but the more millennials that are in this space that I talk to seem to struggle with really pinning down the barometer of what it means to be a part of a community where you can actually say that you are safe, you are known, you belong, and you can look to the people around you as like a found family sort of situation. Sure, yeah, I think found family is a good way to kind of present it because that is the goal, I guess, for lack of a better word. That is the intention here is that the people of God is intentionally going to be diverse, whether that is ethnic, racial differences, gender differences, or even as you were kind of alluding to a little bit there, denominational cultural differences as well, like international cultural differences as well. Found family is definitely, I think, the best way to put it. But also, yes, we're of that time period where we were coming theologically out from a more conservative world. So At least in America, I know you have more of an international audience, so I would be curious to know how this works internationally. But at least in America, theology is on a swinging pendulum, and the practical application of it thereof is on a swinging pendulum. There's these periods of history where we're very conservative in how we practice our faith, and then there's periods of time where we're much more liberal. And just to maybe use terms that are not as triggering, there's periods of time where we're much more about pursue holiness and there's periods of time, generations, that are much more about saved by grace. Okay, now ideally the pendulum just needs to stop swinging. That is the ideal where there is we are in a place where holiness is pursued, but grace is given. Holiness is pursued, but we live under the reality of grace. That's the ideal. So sometimes when people, my more evangelical brothers and sisters in Christ, get really triggered about how darn liberal America is getting and the whole thing, to me, this is not surprising. This is the turn. We are turning to the more grace to the point where grace will be abused, just like Paul writes about in Romans 6, just like how pursuing holiness is a good thing, until it becomes legalism, which is basically what we came out of. So just kind of the state of where we're at in America, again, internationally, I'm not quite sure. I know pockets here and there just because I read articles online where it seems like there are similar things going on, maybe like in the Methodist Church or the Anglican Church of these kind of like more liberal conservative divides going on. But it's also showing very statistically as well that millennials and those just below us, those Gen Zers that everyone forgets exist. I feel bad for Gen Z and I get mad as a young millennial because we kind of get all grouped together. We're different. But our group and also Gen Z is leaving the church in droves, statistically, and religion in general. There is a rise in neo-paganism, kind of this spiritual, not religious, I'm going to formulate my faith based off of what appeals to me, you know? And 1 of the solutions that has been given from the more Catholic side of things, and all of this I picked up in seminary, the more like Catholic perspective is we got to get away from that megachurch stuff and move more to introducing a more spiritual approach to God, get back to art, Christian mysticism, this kind of a thing to both reassure people that American Christianity isn't just a cash grab, because sometimes that's what it looks like, and also get away from just the rigorous doing, do things so that way you can be a Christian and have that relational aspect with God. Yeah. Yeah, there is a movement happened before I became a Christian, but some of the guys that I do ministry with were a part of this era of like a neo-monastic movement where it was getting away from the constant grind, it was getting away from the big show and the big populace and it's getting back to the roots of Christianity and dim lights and incense and small table and like this whole being that's centered around more about like spiritual formation and the spiritual disciplines and things like that rather than like the the the the corporate mainstream of That's that style of Christianity now the thing that I have to laugh at there's some of the main voices in that movement have become such big names that they've kind of turned around towards, you know, being this big voice, leading a whole bunch of people sort of thing. And most of them got famous because they took Dallas Willard's words and modernized them. I'm telling you, if you look at guys like John Mark Homer and stuff like that, Willard did it first and better than any of them. But it's this reaction, it's this response, and why should we be surprised that there is a response, just like there's a response of the younger crowd leaving in droves, or some of my more, I'll call them spiritually adventurous brothers and sisters that I think are asking good questions, I think are responding in a variety of different ways to things that they have experienced within church and are exploring outside of the conventions of Small Sea Church in the very traditional sense. And I think there's a lot of that happening right now with, and that kind of goes up into even the older side of the millennial bracket, getting into zennials and stuff like that. Sure. But it's this response to this hyper fundamental nationalistic at times, moralistic at times, ritualistic at times, expression of what it means to do life as a Christian. And I reckon this, and let me get your insight, because you're of that age bracket. I'm speaking outside, even though you and I are millennials, we do sit on those 2 opposite ends of the spectrum. And that has influenced us in unique ways from each other. So I think the more conversations that I have with folks, the more it seems like this is more of a desire to see what is real, what is authentic, what is actual about all of these different teachings because there is no shortage of teaching to know what the real McCoy is and not willing to sit through nonsense in order to get to it. The second that inauthenticity is noticed or those rituals are noticed or it's more about moralism or even coded hate in some examples, that It's less about wanting to burn down the system and more about we want something that's real. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely get what you're saying there because, you know, especially for those who claim kind of the reformed title of which I was 1 until. Checks time the summer this past summer. Especially of those who are very of the reformed mindset or even Lutheran for that matter, like that is reformation. Like, let's try to get away from like revival language and thinking about revivals and all of that because I grew up in that world. We've been talking about how America needs revival and that it's coming for 30 now. So for 30 years I've been hearing this. But at the heart of reformation isn't let's burn it. You know, That's not what we want. The heart of Reformation is, let's talk about what the problem is. Let's address it head on. Use our modern terms at real authentic conversation. Deconstruct. Look at, OK, what is actually supposed to be going on biblically here, and make those reforms, make those changes. Martin Luther wasn't trying to start a whole new thing. He was trying to reform the Catholic Church. Of course, that's not how history played out, but that is the heart of, you know, those of us who kind of have that like reformed mindset of we're trying to change what is broken and reform it to think biblically. I've started this preaching residency at a church here in North West Indy, and I'm preaching there from this past Sunday. I don't know when this episode is coming out. Mid-October till the end of December is my residency at this church. And the first series up, the pastors just resigned. So the first thing I'm preaching on is transition and leadership. And I'm talking about 1 of the big talking points right off the bat in the first sermon was we have to think biblically about this. You know, we can't go into this thinking that we're going to look at God's Word and God's Word is going to tell me to hire the guy whose resume just popped up in my inbox. That's not going to happen. When any kind of like trial in life comes up and we go to God's word for hyper-specific answers, you're just not going to get that. That's not going to be addressed. There are answers and what I told them is that these are the best answers because these are the ones that we do get from God, but we have to think biblically about these situations. I told them straightforward. God's word does not promise you're going to get another pastor. Like that's blunt and that's not necessarily what a church wants to hear right after their pastor has resigned. But that's what a church needs to hear. We don't want to create some form of false hope in all of this. All that to say is, yeah, I do think there's a bit of what is real, what is authentic. And I think maybe based off of previous conversations, and you can definitely correct me on this show, I would say maybe this is more a me thing. So maybe this is a younger millennial Gen Z thing. I think there's also like trying to get away from the idolatry of labels. I'm very much that stereotypical millennial of I do not want to be labeled a specific thing unless I tell you I am a specific thing. And so I think part of that is what you're saying here of, you know, let's get rid, let's have the conversation and understand what it is that we're dealing with here. And also just trying to like break away from some of these things, some of these defining terms that just, they've become corrupted. They, as much as some people, again, brothers and sisters in Christ that I am friends with want to positively see themselves as a fundamentalist evangelical. I can't. Those words are too tainted for me now. And I just I want to see in scripture what am I? You know getting at a little bit of that identity thing like who am I as a Christ follower and I don't care what the labels we have created are. Yeah I shudder to think how much more a lifer has felt this hang of, I feel like I don't fit in. I feel like what I believe and how I practice is not correct because it doesn't fit in. And I just want to know in this body of believers that is supposed to be this found family, that is supposed to be this collection of the saints, I wanna know where in that do I fit into the whole thing. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's weird because it was kind of like something I was experiencing before I even really realized what was going on, because I've felt this way since college. And you always use the term lifer, so I'll continue to use it. I was even more of a lifer in college. This is like pre a lot of big changes in my life, both personally and also intellectually, because that plays a big factor in it. But even all the way back in college, I had those Theobros in class who had read everything that John Calvin had ever put the paper and were all about Spurgeon. And I'm oftentimes taking jabs at these theologians. And they do matter in the history of all the stuff going on. It's the guys and how they treated it and how they thought and how they talked. Like I was always like, I was that very stereotypical college existentialist listening to REM and really vibing with it. And I also, as a Christian, would throw jars of clay in there as well. But even back then, there was already this tension of like, I'm not conservative enough for the conservatives, I'm definitely not liberal enough for the liberals. That has kind of flip-flopped a little bit more now, post-college, post-seminary even. But yeah, even all the way back then, I was like, I don't fit. I felt a lot like an anomaly. Even all the way like a while back, I was like, I don't even know if I am cool with calling myself an evangelical. And that was before 2020 when that all got really hijacked by the political scene and all. So, yeah, it's a weird place to be in. I said this before on my seminary life, so I'll say this here, because it already has been on record. Sometimes I am very jealous of the pagans, and I mean that in the actual religious way, not the derogatory way that we often use that term. Don't use that term to smear mud on someone else's religious beliefs. It is America after all, so you have to do it. Ha. But because they have this freedom in their spirituality to explore, to question, to pick and choose. And although I'm not too big of a fan of picking and choosing like what parts of the Bible that you're going to follow and what parts you're not going to follow. So I'll let that stand. I'll let that stand on the record. But like when you're in this more like evangelical fundamentalist life or world, there is no freedom to explore because anything outside of the guardrails is immediately labeled heresy outside of orthodoxy. Repent. There is no wiggle room. And I just I mean, you can even get hyper specific in certain denominations. People work that way too. And I just, I, I cannot function that way. You know, I'm no theological expert. You can go get Tripp Fuller if you want the whole process theology, he knows that way better than I can even begin to surface level talk about. But like, even if I don't agree with whatever, you know, we did the episode on My Seminary of Life earlier this year on creation theories, you, me, and Christian, and essentially all 3 of us are kind of in different boats with this thing. Even if I don't agree, I still want to know. I want to talk about it. I want to be, I want that freedom to at least explore. And there's just, there's not in this world of Christianity. It's, This is what you're supposed to believe. Everything outside of that is heresy. You're outside of orthodoxy, repent. Yeah, yeah. There are so many of these that I look to and I'm like, I'm a little bit of that and I'm a little bit of that and I'm a little bit of that because it was Tripp that got me into exploring what process theology looks like, namely because he was 1 of the only other theologians out there. I felt like I was the only 1 talking about relational theology. This idea that it's always been about a relationship. It ties into the fact that this is 1 giant continuity. And in America, we have been trained largely that history began in 1776. That it is a short-sighted, and I don't get nearly as much joy as I used to about taking shots at America, at the Western church system because I think it was I think it might have been you who said this I don't remember exactly where where I said this but somebody reminded me that the western church are people the western church system is a system so if we are going to address Western evangelicalism or the Western church system, it is incumbent on us to differentiate the system from the people within the system, because The people within the system are image bearers. The system is the problem. And the system dictates that history has this finite approach to it, that you are only looking at this amount of history while ignoring or not paying attention to all of this world history that happens before that. And that's part of why all of this is framed as a part of the Axe Project and why we started in those moments post Jesus' ascension. And we followed through to Rome at the end of the book and highlighting that this is just the beginning salvo of what this would end up becoming. And we've hit this point where in the West, we don't pay nearly enough attention about what has come before us and we miss the fact that there has been a steady state of action and response and shift and culture shift and pendulum shift and all of these different things even before America. And we're left, I think that's really created a devastating impact on the way that we have chosen as a culture, as a people, to pursue what it looks like to be members of the kingdom or to be unified, because it's unified around something, an ideology, a methodology, a particular stance or a particular affiliation. But if it's only closed off to this 1 way of thinking, then how do you reconcile the rest of the body of Christ are literally every single 1 of those people heretics? Is that what we're saying? That anybody that does not think like that is a raging heretic? I mean, that's that is the logical. That's how you play that out logically but obviously who cares about logic but you even see it you know you said you know history started at 1776 which I don't know if you knew this or not you made a reference to parks and rec and I doubt you even knew that's fantastic no I had no idea That's a joke in Parks and Rec. But you even see it now. I was not required to take a church history class in seminary. I'm just going to continue to bring that 1 up. But I did take 1 in college almost 10 years ago. And it's even evident in how we tell our church history that there's a very narrow way that we talk about this. Because after the Great Schism, when the Western Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church split, you never hear from them again. We just follow the Catholic Church until you get to the Protestant Reformation, and then you get to the Great Awakening. But you never hear from the Orthodox Church again. Whenever I can get around to doing a church history series on my seminary life, Josh Noll has a connection to Eastern Orthodox, he might be a Greek Orthodox, I don't remember specifically, priest, and he is gonna come on the show and he is going to fill in the gaps. I'm promising this episode because I'm just curious at this point, what the heck happened? But even from how we tell our own history, both American whitewashed political history and then also our religious history, it is very narrow. And yeah, everything that falls outside of those brackets of what we have defined as, you know, orthodoxy would then therefore be, you know, heresy and, you know, something you have to repent of or somebody you can't trust, even though the guys that we do like, they did believe things that definitely fall outside of orthodoxy or fall outside of how we like things now. Augustine's view on creation is nowhere near 6 day literal creation. It is all allegorical. Athanasius, I think it's Athanasius, you would have to fact check me on this 1, it's whoever the church father was who wrote on the incarnation. So the big Magnes opus on our understanding of like Jesus taking on flesh, like How did this work? He believed in fairies. Origen also believed in fairies and wrote about fairies. And actually, there are still Christians out there who have written about the existence of fairies, including everybody's favorite Anglican, C.S. Lewis. Like, we get to these points, and actually some of Lewis's hermeneutics is very much outside of the realm of orthodoxy as well, but you know, again. I try to stay away from anything from Lewis that emphasizes End Times or Eschatology because I know fundamentally that is exactly where we part ways. And it's a little sad to know that some of what his thoughts were on End Times stuff because I'm like, oh come on man, everything else was so good. Good, So good. Miracles is a hard read, but man, it is so good, his thoughts on how miracles work. Anyway, yeah, like, and that kind of goes to show that this idea of like you fit in this 1 pocket doesn't work. It's not, it's, that's physically impossible to just fit into 1 pocket theologically as much as someone does. And some people do like, you know, I think very definitely those of that like early 2000s until now, like reformed camp that young restless and reformed Mark Driscoll kind of world. Like, yeah, they are 1 thing and all other else be damned like literally be damned to hell. Seriously. Yeah. And not. Yeah. Oh, And definitely not annihilation. Maybe some annihilationist, but definitely you're going to hell. That's a theology joke. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I'm sure there are people out there who are like very much like I was born a Methodist and I will die a Methodist I was born a Baptist I will die a Baptist but even people who are of that generation Like Gen X and above now who are like I grew up Baptist and you know, you would expect them to be that. They're having conversations with me now of like, I'm done with this denomination. I'm done with this like 1 size fit all kind of Christianity because it just, it doesn't work that way. We have a Gen Xer in KFM that is exactly that. Grew up a Baptist on the West Coast through a journey of church hurt and nonsense and several different churches, is now a pastor at a Lutheran church. And like we're talking high liturgy, the whole, the whole kit and caboodle when you think about Lutheranism. And so it is interesting to me to see those shifts in some of the crowds that are willing to separate themselves from the label of this denomination, this way of thought, stuff like that. 1 of the things that threw me off, when I first came, like, I got saved, asked a million questions, was still into, like, motivational tracks while, like, working out and stuff like that. Okay. And by way of trying to find those sorts of things, found the prosperity gospel, found those sorts of tracks on YouTube, had my mind blown that you could have it all, that you could have the money and the things and the stuff and have it all be God flavored. And so I was hoped like a mark, 1000% hoped like a mark. And then it was a simple question that pulled to the thread and I could not unring that bell. And it was as simple as if the operative goal is for God to see you healthy and wealthy and well-off. And that was a measure of prosperity in the eyes of Jesus, then square the circle between that and his followers. And I couldn't, I tried, Lord knows I tried, but I could not. And that's what kickstarted the question, what does this life mean then? What's the point? Do we just slog through this life for 70, 80, 90 years to get to the good stuff afterwards? What is literally the point? Do we just walk around telling people about Jesus? Is that the sum total of the Christian experience? And that's what got me to kingdom language. That's what got me to relational theology. And this whole idea that literally from the beginning, from in the beginning, where it says nothing about the specifics of how it looked. There's language used, but that's not the point. Nor is it the point that, you ready for me to be the heat magnet for this 1? Don't worry, I will take it for this 1. There's nothing that says that Adam and Eve were the only humans that existed on the earth during the Garden Account. Literally nothing. And I argue that the scriptures make less sense if they were the only ones and that literally the entire world was populated from Adam and Eve as it is commonly written but that that's enough to get you labeled a heretic that means that you don't believe the scriptures That means you don't believe in God. And, but, but from in the beginning, it's all about relationship. It's all about the giving of dominion from creator to created, over the earth. And that's repeated with, with group and person and situation and circumstance for thousands of years. And that's where, no wonder why you have a whole bunch of people who do not understand what their identity in Christ is, because it was never rooted in that. It was rooted in make sure you do enough, make sure you show up on Sunday, make sure that you stay pure, make sure that you go to youth group, make sure that you raise your kids, wholly instead of part, only doing trunker treats, never seeing this, never doing this, never listening to rock music. Yes, it sounds like I'm being cynical, but I've watched and I've walked with people that now at this stage of life have have separated themselves from all of that exactly. And it blew my mind when I came out of the prosperity gospel and started talking about this stuff and started preaching this stuff. And how many people looked at me like, okay, but what about the law? Jesus literally speaks to that. Okay, what about figuring out who your neighbor is? Jesus literally speaks to that. And if it's not about community, if it's not about connection, then it's gotta be about something else, you know? You know, I think once a month I learned something new about you. I did not know that you had a prosperity gospel moment in the sun. I did not know that was a it was brief. It was brief. But yes, I was. I didn't know because I and this is what's often like going back and thinking about this, this is part of what has softened my heart to not thinking about people that are in these different ways of thinking as much as twirling villains that are trying to distort the truth of scripture. Because some of this stuff is literally so ingrained and people do not have a strong enough foundation to be able to critique what it is that you're hearing. That was 1000%. Like, before I had any biblical chops or understanding or any of it, I was hearing these things that sounded great, that told me exactly what I wanted to hear. And I think that's where a lot of this stuff is born out of, is not really understanding what does the Bible say about community? What does the Bible say about love thy neighbor? What does the Bible say about connecting with other people and loving first and living at peace? What does the Bible say about connecting with other people and loving first and living at peace? What does the Bible say about that? Not what does your pastor say about that? What does your preacher say about that? Anytime that you get Brandon and I together, we're going to find some moment to give the PSA and to give the plug for the love of everything that's holy, do not take our word for it. Investigate the scriptures, take what we say and compare it to the scriptures because we don't want anyone running off and saying, Pastor Joe, Pastor Brandon said this and thus saith the Lord. No, there's a difference between what a pastor says and thus saith the Lord. Of course, pastors were giving that disclaimer for years. And then an entire generation rose up and said, OK, bet we're going to do that. And then now that the deconstruction movement is in full swing, all those pastors are going, no, no, no, just take my word. Stay here at church and take it. Just take my word for it. Literally. Yeah. You all did it wrong. Not what I meant. I meant, take my word for it on everything. Yep, yep, exactly, exactly. And it's so easy to become cynical. That's the thing. It's so easy to just get angry, because at some point you get sick and tired of being the person who doesn't fit in, to being a foot mat for people because you don't think the same way. And so you get stepped on, and you get belittled, and you get shoved down in the conversation because you think differently than what is normative. And you're left in the situation where you're looking around and saying, okay, guys, seriously, we are supposed to be the church, even if it's outside of the parameters of the small C church, we are supposed to be the big C church. And we're sitting here playing Cupcake games of back and forth or whispers behind closed doors or whatever. And it turns into something outside of just having a connection with another person. Or in my case, because of this lifer status, just gonna own it. How dare you assign labels to me? No, I was kidding. With this lifer status, there is oftentimes the assumption that I do agree. Whatever the thing may be. That is, that's the problem I run into is that because of, because apparently I'm just supposed to stay stagnant. I'm never supposed to change my mind, even though it's literally 1 of the things I say on the podcast, which shows that not too many of my friends listen to my podcast. I do reserve the right to change my mind later. And there is often this assumption of, oh, Brandon's a really solid guy, theologically, biblically. So XYZ statement. No, I don't agree with that. You know, whatever the case may be. And I have to tread lightly sometimes because there are some, I live, we were talking off air, you were kind of describing a little bit the political scene in your area. I'm in a weird kind of political area. Being so, being adjacent to Chicago, we are kind of that 1940s Democrat, kind of that old school Democrat, for like the first 45 minutes out of Chicago, and then it is a hard turn red. Like there's a lot of Trump flags in my neighborhood now. Just kind of give you a picture, even though I grew up in a town where no Republicans ever ran for any local government because no 1 ever voted for them. Just to kind of show like how quickly things change. And so there are some things like LGBTQ plus issues, or pro-life, pro-choice, those kind of typical things that like, I kind of come at these way more nuance than some of my other friends. Is I don't that I just agree because even though this might be a group devoted to thinking critically about scripture everyone just agrees and just it's just sharing their resources slash propaganda with each other so they can better equip each other to do their gig. Like, so... So yeah, that is more so the issue I run into is that there's this moment where people are caught off guard because, oh, Brandon's handling this way more nuanced than I would have expected. And there are times, because I do play this role of preaching, teaching, and various different kind of spheres, that I will be forward. There were times where, at my old home church, where I say, I'm not on staff, I'm not going to agree with them on this. And you have the right. It was like a Bible study small group thing. You have the freedom to leave if this is going to bother you. And no 1 did, because everyone liked me in that group, which I was very thankful for. It was actually a group of people who respected me. And what I had to say, and since I was upfront about, hey, I'm not going to follow the narrative on this 1 a little bit like They wanted to actually hear what I had to say which was a refreshing change of pace Yeah, I think it's just so it's so obvious that that the authenticity will shine through in those situations a lot of the time that it's just, for a lot of people, especially people that are, when you're talking about within Christianity, It's like this refreshing thing that when you get like this, I'm not just gonna toe a line, I'm not just gonna have a ready-made answer because of xyz. It is the level of assumptions that you get as a passer, as somebody in their 30s, as somebody who doesn't necessarily, that supports some people, who is an ally to some people, who speaks out for social justice and things like that, that all grants you a very particular view in the eyes of other people. You get this label put on you, and part of why I can't stand those labels and I'm right there with you, is so many of these labels get turned into something so much more than what they say that they are. Calvin wasn't even a Calvinist. Are you an 18 point Calvinist or a 24 point Calvinist? Yes, yes, I'm saying that tongue in cheek. I understand it's not 18 and 24, but the point stands that if you say that you believe in predestination, this thought comes up. If you say that you're reformed, this thought comes up. If you say that you believe in free will, this thought comes up. You say that you don't agree with political stances, this thought comes up. And it's this, it's hard because at some point, the natural response is is to get gun-shy about being around other people, even though you're trying to reconcile that with this identity as beloved of God, a child of God, part of the family, and a citizen of the kingdom of God, who has the call to live in community with the rest of the kingdom. And you're almost left in this situation of looking at God and saying, yeah, but they don't want me. So what do I do? Are you gonna hold me accountable? Because I live in an area where I don't agree with the scene out here, or I have been rejected, or I have been, I think differently. Like, you know what I mean? And it becomes this trap of a hamster wheel trying to figure out, am I just the problem here? Am I seeing things that I shouldn't be seeing? Or am I really just seeing how the sausage is being made from a mainstream standpoint? Yeah, I will give this as an example of me not fitting in. So, because it's very simple. I have a friend who is 1 of those more like hardline reformed bros, okay? Yeah. And he knew that I'm a little bit more on the social justice side of things in some of my teaching, because you know, we should take care of people. Anyway, so He was like, okay, I got into a Facebook discussion with somebody, mistake number 1, where he had posted, my friend had posted, you know, we should be spending so many hours a day reading scripture, why don't we? And somebody who's way more, way, way more on the social justice side of things was like, well, I think we should be doing, you know, bringing justice and fighting for justice for that many hours a day rather than reading scripture. So he asked me, so which 1 do you think it is? And I'm trying not to set this up like when they're bringing the coin to Jesus and they're like, so who do we pay taxes to? But that's kind of how it sounds. And I looked at him and I was like, is there an answer when we can do both? Yeah, I mean, can't we do both? Like, seriously. Is there a both? And that's the annoying part about this kind of world that we live in, you and I, of we're always at like, well, how about option C, all of the above? Like what can we do? Yeah. But. Why can't we have our cake and eat it too? Right, especially when you know, you can find biblical support for both I Appreciate that because I like cake. All right, that's all that's it. That's a wrap for this week Let's go ahead and pray father. God. I thank you for this time together father I thank you that we have the ability to be able to come together and have honest and open dialogue in that you invite that that you are a God that allows us to ask questions to push boundaries to investigate and interrogate what it means to do life as followers of you, as sons and daughters. Father, I thank you that you are for us and with us, and I pray for sensitivity to the Spirit that we may know that you are King, you are Lord, and that we are heaved and held. Father, I thank you for who and what you are in Jesus' name. Amen. All right, we pick up next week with part 2 of the conversation until then peace y'all